This and That Newsletter
A Weekly Publication
Vol 17 Issue 860 Circulation 5,000 July 18, 2013
PO Box 2
Ardmore, Oklahoma 73402
email address: email@example.com
It is hard to believe another year has gone by and today is my birthday, again. My mother told me years ago I was born about 8:30am on the 18th. Maybe that is the reason all my life I've been an early riser. I love to beat the sun up. And I guess I should be happy I am still kicking. So many friends have passed on including many the past 15 years of my newsletter publishing. As of this evening when I sent out this T&T I had received over 700 Happy Birthday wishing on my Facebook. I am overwhelmed and appreciative of every one of you. Thank you so much, the happy BD wishes have meant so much!
Speaking of deaths, a friend who has been reading my newsletter for many years passed away a couple days ago. I have mentioned him before because he was my Number 1 lawn mower repairman even though he was in his 70s. He lived several miles north of Lone Grove, but the drive was worth it, he repaired lawn mowers at a very reasonable cost. RIP George Waller.
June 1929, The Daily Ardmoreite: Tom Rambo, 28, is dead and Will Ward, chief of police of Wilson, Oklahoma is bruised and powder-burned, as the result of a shooting affray near the Bayou Friday night. Murder charges were filed against Ward. He is said to be considerably bruised from blows Rambo gave him, and his face and chest are powder burned on account of a close range from which Rambo shot. Ward said he received a call to the farm home of J.R. Jones, where a dance was taking place. The two men were said to be fighting. Ward got in the middle and shoved the two men out the door. Rambo then hit Ward with his gun and fired three shots at him. Ward ducked the shots, grabbed his own gun, and fired once at Rambo. Rambo is survived by his wife and three kids.
Q. What Oklahoma river's name is from the Spanish name for "River of the Wild Sheep"?
A. Rio de los Carneros Cimarron or the Cimarron River.
Q. Which Custer led Indian battle / massacre occurred in Roger Mills County on November 27, 1868?
A. (answer in next week's T&T)
From This and That newsletter archives of July 17, 1999:A friend snapped the pic below of Olustee School just SW of Altus, Oklahoma. When he saw it, and the 1930 date on the outside, he thought of my grandfather, Stanley Carmon. My grandfather built 29 schools in Oklahoma during the period right after the crash of '29. This could be one of those schools, since he built many of them in that area.
What I go through just to bring a piece of the past to everyone. Last Sunday I stepped on a cow patty trying to get a pic of Cobb Springs in Davis, Oklahoma. I obtained a copy of a pamphlet about Davis, Oklahoma, and in it was mention of Cobb Springs. Cobb Springs, along with Turner Falls, was the two primary things that drew people to Davis, OK around 1900. Nearly everyone in this area has heard of Turner Falls, but Cobb Springs??? That was a new one for me too. So we stopped at the Davis Museum (depot) and this most gracious lady there volunteered to take us to Cobb Springs.
Cobb Springs lies at the dead end of Swanda Drive in SW Davis, just south of Green Hill Cemetery. Had it not been for this Davis historian, Opal Heartsill Brown, we never would have found the Springs. It was behind some private property. What Ms. Brown told us was Cobb Springs was really a set of springs..... maybe five, where each one created a little lagoon of its own behind this property. I was able to walk down to one of the lagoons, after jumping over an electric fence used to keep the cattle in, and stepping right smack dab in the middle of a stinking cow patty. Oh brother. But it was worth it...... here is the pic.
The Honorable Judge Lee Card's courtroom here in Ardmore received some remodeling this week. Years ago the banisters and railings were painted with a dark brown paint. Now the natural wood grain shows through.
In 1930 there was an all out war being waged in Ardmore, Oklahoma on slot machines. Parents were mad that their children were using lunch money on the slot machines in local eating establishments. Ouster proceedings had been brought earlier against former sheriff Ewing London of Carter County, mainly because he would not enforce prohibition laws and do something about the slot machines operating within the county. Here is the complete story as a text file:
"Butch I remember the place called Ricks Roost. It was about where the A1 mini storage now sets. It faced the SW and it did look a little like the Hilltop Cafe but was down the hill north on the east side of highway 77. I sure hope my memory serves me close."
"A belated, but big thanks for running the story of Mena Walters. My puter was not feeling well, so I sent it in for a little minor surgery while I was away on vacation. Well, its now home and I am getting caught up on T & T. Its still the best thing out of all the other things I read on the web each day. Reading all the good info your wonderful readers send in re-enforces my belief there are still a lot of good everyday people in this world. Its kind of like hearing the news from home."
THE MENA WALTERS STORY: Everyone loves a mystery, and did I learn about one this week that piqued my interest. A resident in Houston, Texas sent me email inquiring about a Mena Walters. Mena Walters died in Houston, TX on April 21, 1923. The newspaper of that day said she was to be transferred to Ardmore, Oklahoma for burial. But for unknown reasons that never happened. Instead she was buried in the space next to this man's grandmother. All these years this man's family thought that was a vacant burial space in their family lot. But through cemetery records, they now know that is not the case. This man in Houston was able to get a death certificate on Mena Walters, but it gave no further details to this mystery.... no parent's names, no next of kin, nothing. Even Mena's place of birth and date was marked "unknown". There was a Mrs. Grade Seigel listed as an informant on the death certificate. No one in this man's family ever heard of Grade Seigel either. What a mystery. I wonder what could be the connection between Mena Walters and Ardmore? Why was she not sent to Ardmore for burial as stated in the Houston Chronicle? Does anyone remember Mena Walters??????
"The Indian statue in the Arbuckle Mountains. I remember the statue, the upraised hand was a sign of welcome. That meant he was 'friendly' and bid welcome, etc. I saw one similar to it a few years ago in Gladewater, Texas at a junk store, but it was not for sale. Instead of an upraised hand, the right hand was clenched in a loose fist in front of his stomach area, such as you would carry a bouquet of flowers to your favorite girl. But, instead of flowers, about 3 cigars was displayed in his hand. Thus, the term cigar store Indian. Keep up the good work"
Gas prices today in the Ardmore area......
Check gas prices by town or zip code anywhere in U.S.
Some mail from this week's MAILBAG....."Butch, In this week's T&T you republished a post from March 1971 about Joe Bailey Cobb. It reminded me of a time back in the early 1940's, I think, when Joe had my dad fired from the Oklahoma Highway Department because my dad would not lie when Joe asked him if he was going to vote for him. Dad said that he would be voting for Oscar Lowrance of Murray county because he had worked for Oscar for many years and he would have to support him. The first 10 years of my life were spent on the Lowrance Ranch and I have two grand parents buried in the Lowrance cemetery. I have wonderful memories of that time in my life. Joe said to my dad "Doc, you know what will happen to you if I am elected don't you"? Dad said "yes, but I will not lie to you to keep my job". Such were politics then and in some respects even now and such was the integrity of one of the best dads in the world, "Doc Miller". Happy Trails." -Roy Miller, Okc
"I was out walking this morning and came upon a little Chinese man that was out walking when he was attacked by a Golden retriever. He had his rice paddy hat on and had a shovel and an old fertilizer spreader that he was putting dirt in. I guess that he was scooping up dirt that had washed into the streets from the previous storm and flooding when the dog came at him. I saw what was happening and came running up to help him. A woman came out of the house where the dog was and got the dog. I told her that was a dangerous thing and she told me to get the sh? out of there. When I told her that I had been mauled several times by pit bulls, she said I don?t care. I just got through calling the city about this issue. I doubt that it will do any good though. People need to he held accountable for their animals ? period... It is kind of sad because that little Chinese guy can?t speak English. All he can say is HELLO." -Cecil
Hi Butch, just a few quirks from your country:
After leaving England, my flight path flew over somewhere between the tip of Iceland and Greenland, several hours later got amazing views of Hudson Bay, its full of ice! it goes on and on and on...
flew over the the Great Plains, passed by Churchill, Calgary, finally Las Vegas!
And then the adventures begin, Open-mouthed smile emoticon After picking up the hired car which was huge! Ford Taurus, then set off on the road to try and find the hotel, at this stage can see the hotel, but cant get to it, roads with lanes of up to 6 lanes on each side in places! and no set rules of which lane to be in !! Yikes however after a short time got into the jist of the highway lol.
This is when the fun began, talk about two English speaking nations divided by the same language lol, encounter 1. I was in the car park and saw signs of No Pan Handling, I thought hmm what does that mean? then had the brainwave it must mean do not park outside the parking lines! so made sure I carefully parked, it wasn't until well into my holiday I spoke to someone about people selling goods in the car park, he replied oh Pan Handling ..... no comment Butch haha
Talking about supermarkets I was buying milk half and half thinking it was semi skimmed until a kind lady explained what I really wanted was 2% and supermarkets selling Pretzel bread? I've never heard of that before?
When in cafes or restaurants, when I ordered tea it never came with milk, I always had to ask for milk, and got strange looks when they knew i wanted it for my tea? another time I ordered a hot dog with chips, and it came with a packet of crisp! instead of what I now know you call fries it was endless lol, quite funny at times, nearly everyday I had to repeat myself a lot, because of our accents lol, couldn't understand me, like-wise I had to ask them to repeat back to me as well, everyone saw the funny side of it, I loved it when in a cafe, after ordering a drink your asked is it to go? so strange lol.
I actually tried a biscuit and white gravy, can you believe! I think I would call your biscuit a scone, never had white gravy before.
Whilst out there an elderly couple took me under their wing and showed me the ropes of what I could do with a hot dog? I was very surprised when he showed me some chili sauce and poured it over his sausage!I've never had anything like that before, and then he put mustard over the top of the chili!! oh my gosh, I didn't copy him afraid to say lol. Another incident in one of the hotels I saw someone pour what I thought was porridge on toast? I'm thinking to myself I've never seen that done before?! I think, only think it was white gravy?? I tell you a different world haha
Your light switches are upside down, when the switch is up the light is on, instead of the other way around.How empty the roads are, drive for miles without seeing another car, speed restrictions are kept, no road works everywhere as they are in England, and huge traffic jams everywhere, I could go on, will save it for another letter Smile emoticon hope you enjoy this one for now. PS: Gas is $3.50 a gallon amazing, or awesome as you say lol, in England its $10 so wish I could fill up my car for 3.50 -Judith in the UK
Your supermarket trolleys only turn on the front two wheels, instead of all four?
Chips are Crisp
You say quarder I say quarter
No knife given to me with a meal ?
Turn outs on roads, is what we call lay by's
Pay for petrol before you can self serve?
Pan Handling .......
Its lovely and clean out there, it was one of the first things I noticed, I put it down to the lovely dry weather, oh and guess what? I now know how long a block is !! yeyy I love the packets of Lays potato chips (crisps).
To all of my Gene Autry, Oklahoma friends. I am starting my second book about the history of Gene Autry/Berwyn school. If you have any pictures I can put in the book please email them. I will give you credit in the book. I plan to start the book in August so please submit what you can ASAP. Sandra Haney Tedford has told me I can use the pictures she has, thank you Sandra. Please forward this email to anybody that might have some pictures of the school that we don't have." -Doug Williams firstname.lastname@example.org
RE: Open Air Mall in OKC. "Hi Butch. It was Penn Square. My mother who worked for Frank Wade, who franchised the luncheon cafes for John A. Brown Company, helped open the cafe at Penn Square. It seemed like an architectural marvel when the roof was added somtime later." -Susan in Baton Rouge
"Butch: My name is Bill Nutting. My father, J. T. Nutting, was with Tyler & Simpson Co. in Gainesville, TX, Pauls Valley, OK, and Ardmore, OK for over 50 years. In 1944, I married Billye Bigbie, the daughter of Geneva Gauntt Bigbie. Billye's uncle, Royce E. Gauntt, is in the Veterans Hospital at Ardmore now and at 95 has a hard time remembering things. He was for a long time Chairman of the Board and CEO of the Chickasaw Telephone Company located in Sulphur, OK. Royce's father, John Gauntt of Lone Grove, was the original owner of the Lone Grove Telephone Co. which, in 1907-1937 served Lone Grove and Oil City. Royce moved the home office from Lone Grove to Ardmore and then, when the Company had grown quite a bit, to Sulphur. Billye and I have been married for 69 years come November. She is the senior member of the Gauntt children other than Royce." -Bill Nuttjng
Butch--The Cherokee people are supposedly in my ancestry. I have worked with the DNA Genealogy. At the time I had already found that John Crow most likely was no relations to me, therefore I didn't check for a Happ group.
I did read all I could find on John Crow. Now this John Crow was one unhappy fellow.
I am not sure your John Crow and mine was the same fellow.
In the last T&T you named many of the Cherokee chiefs.
Thought I would tell you some story?s about a couple of the Cherokee people that came from here.
Sequoia has had many things in these parts named for him. One of the biggest caves in these parts is named for him.
He was said to live about 7 miles north of us. Now there is dozens of story?s about his actual person. He was the son of a Maj. Gist born some where around Louden Tenn. He brought his family here between Lookout Mt and sand Mountain.
They lived on the side of one of the ridges. There was a historic marker showing the home place.
The name had turned to Guest by now. The local Guest family claim him as an ancestor. Now if I recall right T.K Guest [long dead] Said his great grand dad lived to be old. His great grand dad was the great or grand son of George Guist.
Now here is his story.
He worked on the alphabet and was marking shingle that was to go on the house. There were a house full of kids. He would not cut any wood for fires or help out around the cabin.
One day she told him to go up on the hill and drive the cows up to be milked. He went over to New Echoto and stayed around with the news paper people. While he was gone she built fires with his carvings on the shingles.
Since they spoke sylabrary. He had been able to teach one of the girls to recognize the symbols on the shingles.
He came home and found his clothes thrown out .He then took the girl and went back to New Echoto and here began the news paper. Now the wife here set his clothes out the door. The Cherokee way of divorce. She reared the boys and rest of the children here. T. K.?s great grand dad was in his 80 or 90?s when he died. T.K. said they still owned the place in 1900. The state decided the family didn?t know what they were talking as about so they moved the historic marker.
Well it is a fact they are Native Americans and they have been here a long while.
This upset the family, but no one said anything, So the all knowing state moved the marker to Ft Payne. this would be about 20 miles north of the place that was said for nearly 100 years was his place.
[The artifact people may have helped in the marker movement. the people who owned the land got tired of them slipping in and digging up the property]
Seven miles north of here is Wills Town one of the larger Cherokee settlements. The trail from Turkey town to Wills town is still visible. [That also according to some of the geologist]
I was working on John Crow and found George Guist in Arkansas with the early settlers. He had chose another wife and the girl was still helping perfect his alphabet. He apparently fathered some more children.
Now what I know about John Crow. Family story?s says that John Crow was my grand father John Crow?s grand dad. So I took off after him. He too was a 1/8 blood according to the story?s of the ancestor hunters. That my great grand father John Clark Crow was his son.
I dug after him for a number of years.
I know he took part in the massacre of Ft. Louden in Tenn. Near Knoxville. He went to Greenville S.C. and got a group together and got 12 or 15 of his kin killed. No one would follow him after that.
He then came to Chattanooga and organized the Chickamauga band and got together a large group. Now I suspect George Guist to be part of the group. He got into it again at the bend of the river that runs through Rome Ga. Here a bunch more go shot up pretty bad. The next time I found record of him in Crow town, a large village on side of Crow mountain near the mouth of Crow Creek entering the Tenn river. [ Bridge port an Stevenson area-Jackson co. Al.] He as many others left with the early settlers for Indian Territory.
So when they moved them in 1838 The records showed a bunch of John Crow?s. I don?t recall in the entire roll any man that was not named John Crow.
I then gave up on making him my kin. I did find he declared war on the U. S. and never signed a treaty or settled it.
Them that hid in these mountains inter married as soon as they could and was said to pose as black Dutch.
I live near an old lady who has a clutter of cats, Every evening she would start hollering we-sa, we-sa, we-sa hear we-sa . I ask the granny who lived to be 101 why she called them that. Her reply is that is their name. I didn?t know what it meant and later after taking in eastern Cherokee dsictonary I found it.
I just though a little of my take on it could interest you.
I have found like the Civil War there was as many lies told on the Cherokee people as there were on Albamians. This area was almost 100% union folks. Blount Co. also.-Taylor Crow in Alabama
"Dear Butch, always enjoy to see a name I remember from Ardmore, Ella Bone, of course your grandparents, the Carmons with the lumber yard, where we always bought our wall paper and supplies and Mr. Wood would hang it for our Mother! Ella Bone was a good friend of our Aunt Callie's saw her on occasion when I would be delivering something. . They had moved away for a while, I remember when they returned and bought the two story home at 4th and F NE. I do not know if that was their home place or a new purchase. Enjoyed the story of how Ella Bone helped your grandparents whom all of us knew. Was your Grandmother Addie, the Avon Lady? Remember her quite well. I always wanted the darkest reddest lip stick, she would give me samples. Our Dad would make comments. He would be so happy I don't wear a bit now!" -Joanna
"Hi Butch, I was reading the newsletter last night, and I must say that you are REALLY good at the brick engraving! I just wish that I had some way to get three bricks to you for engraving. They are (1) The old Biltmore Hotel (2) Baptist Children?s Home and (3) an original brick from the street in Bricktown. A guy from ONG was removing the bricks for utility construction and gave me one for a keepsake. It would be nice to have them engraved so that someday people would know that those bricks had a story to tell. Otherwise, they would just say it?s just an old brick and discard it. History is important even if it is a brick."
"Butch, here's a little known verse of our National Anthem that your readers might be interested in. If not this year, since the Fourth was yesterday, then maybe in next year's newsletter if you decide to share it." -Mary Lou
The following is the last of four verses of "The Star-Spangled Banner" by Francis Scott Key (1814):
"Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heav'n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!"
"I was doing an internet search for my 3X great grandfather Nelson Chigley and came across the following note in one of your newsletters:
"Hello, I'm looking for anyone with a connection or who knows someone from this family. It begins with Jessie and Mary Hoffman. Jessie came from Texas at the age of 16 and married Mary who may have been the adopted daughter of the wealthy Chickasaw Indian, Nelson Chigley, who built the Chigley mansion in Davis, Oklahoma which is now a B&B. They had a number of children." Dalbridge@aol.com
Mary (Hoffman) Burris was my grandmother. She was the daughter of Jesse Hoffman who was married to Fannie Faye (Talley) Hoffman. "Granny Faye" as we called her, was the daughter of William Talley and Agnes Suda (Chigley) Talley. Agnes Suda Chigley was the daughter of Nelson Chigley.
Randy Burris email@example.com
Happy Birthday to Me by Glenn Yarbrough - 1967
See everyone next week!
Butch and Jill Bridges
PO Box 2
Lone Grove, Oklahoma 73443
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